Erik Marcus & Why I'm Vegan

Interesting stuff indeed.

“I fundamentally believe that if more people had more awareness, they would, as consumers, DEMAND more humane treatment and be willing to pay more for that.”

In the UK at least, I know of many people who would prefer to buy freerange eggs and meat, etc.That’s all lovely, and whilst the price on some freerange products has come down, the cost still differs significantly! The kind of people who buy totally freerange now are either people for whom money is no object, or very passionate people who make sacrifices in other areas in order to pay for the best quality food.

Personally I don’t see it as just an awareness issue, and think that’s naive :O *oops* hehe.For example people know in the back of their minds that their clothes are cheaper because they’re made by Chinese people who are earning a pittance of what we would demand! And those Bananas we eat were probably picked by people earning a pittance as well.And our pensions are invested into all sorts of dealings that are less than desirable, but that’s just how it is right.People are, for the most part, all “aware” of what goes on.
What I believe it is fundamentally about, is getting it to the forefront of their minds, so it actually matters, that this makes a difference, that it can work another way - and show them how it can work!

At the moment the state of affairs is:

-Pay the mortgage this month and get the car taxed, or
- buy freerange food and doube/treble the cost of processed food and blow the mortgage and car.

It’s a no brainer man, the car and mortgage comes first.People don’t have this sh!t at the forefronts of their minds, why? because when their is no choice there is no point for it to be in consciousness.The subject of battery farms and overprocessing is put at the back of people’s minds precisely because they feel and know it is wrong, but they can see no way around it.

So really the strategy should be, not to just make people “aware” of this (ie: the dumb masses as I suspect some may see them), as if that’d be case solved, but to actually inform them how they can practically change their food choices now! and incorporate it into their lives now! I’m up for hearing tips on that

PS: Or we could all just go vegan :D

There’s another possibility for some folks who aren’t vegan/vegetarian (for philosophical reasons) but who are faced with sticker shock when it comes to organicically and ethically raised foods:  find a local farm that embraces these values and buy from them.  I realize this is nearly impossible for the extreme urbanites (although there are co-op type organizations forming all over the country for just this demographic of conscious consumers,) but *most* middle-sized and even some larger cities do have significant suburban-rural outskirts that might be home to small farms that practice compassionate husbandry and utilize organic growing methods.  I know because I’m on one, myself… and not only am I surrounded by others, as well (and I’m sure central VA is not alone in being forward thinking, considering VA’s other, less progressive issues overall,) but I keep contact with an ever-growing number of small-scale homesteaders all over the world, now, that follow these practices and have surplus (read: more than can feed their family and stock their storehouses) to sell. 

But here’s the rub… it takes some effort on the part of the would-be consumer to find these small providers.  Most of us don’t advertise (we don’t need to,) and we don’t deliver (you’ll have to make a trip out to the *gasp* country and actually SEE the farmstead where your food was grown or raised.)  Within a fifteen minute drive of our place (an hour from Richmond, 2 1/2 from VA Beach area, 3 from DC Metro) you can buy almost anything your heart (and palate) desires, grown and raised compassionately and organically… but in this age of instant gratification and one-click online ordering, I think that most people are more talk (and lazy) than they are action when it comes to such things.

I’m glad to see that someone has addressed the “banana issue,”  too… it’s not just animals that are subjected to inhumane treatment in order to feed and clothe the rest of us.  I know “enlightened” individuals who would *never* touch any of our homegrown beef but think nothing about buying and consuming vegetable foodstuffs that are cultivated, harvested, and packaged on the backs of underprivileged and exploited humans.

In chapter three of my book _Meat Market: Animals, Ethics, and Money_ I talk about why it’s hard to get the cruelty and suffering out of animal agriculture – even by moving your purchases to smaller alternative farms.  Sure, you can end the confinement and mutilation-related abuses that occur on large factory farms, but there are still a lot of terrible things that just cannot be stripped away.

For instance, it’s simply economically impossible to do away with animal slaughter in the production of milk and eggs.  These are reproductive “foods” produced by young cows and hens.  As these females age their yields sharply decline.  Factory farms typically get rid of their hens at two years, even though they could live five years.  Most cows are sent to slaughter at under four years, even though they could live to be twenty or more.  And since alternative farms keep their animals under better (more expensive) conditions, they are under even greater pressure to send less productive animals to slaughter.  What this means is that every drop of milk sold in your health food store or farmer’s market, and every free-range egg, comes from an animal who is going to a slaughterhouse.  Guaranteed.

And there’s a whole lot of other nastiness that I don’t have the space to get into here.  I don’t have time to space about how the dairy industry keeps the veal industry afloat, nor do I have space to discuss the fate of the male “layer” chicks that all egg producers are responsible for generating.  But it all boils down to the fact that whenever you eat milk, or eggs, or meat, the animals who produce this food are all going to end up in the slaughterhouse unless they die prematurely from disease.  Every last one.  Even those produced by local, organic farms.  I’m not sure we can call a system like this “compassionate.”  Especially since it’s so easy and delicious to move to an animal-free diet.

Finally, unless you actually pay your local farm a regular visit, you’re essentially going on the word of the farmer that his/her conditions are humane.  And this is a *major* leap of faith.  I also think it’s important to visit the slaughterhouse where your farmer sends his/her animals.  Again, this takes work and effort – and a willingness to expose yourself to disturbing experiences.  Even ovo-lacto vegetarians should visit a slaughterhouse since all dairy cows and all layer hens go to slaughter well before middle age.  Animal slaughter, if you’ve never witnessed it, is brutal to watch.  Every single one of the ten billion farmed animals raised in the US are cut in the throat and bled to death.

I’m sorry, these arguments that there are “compassionate” alternatives really bother me.  I’d respond that these alternatives are less cruel, but they are by no means compassionate.  I do think that for people who insist on eating animal products, it’s important to avoid factory farms and to pay your alternative producer regular visits to check on conditions.  But it’s so much easier, and so much more compassionate, to leave animal foods off the table entirely.

disclaimer - most of this is devil’s advocate - but just wanted to raise some other ideas and question some things maybe taken for granted…

Just like Zaadz, food producers are in it to make money. If the people at Zaadz are so concerned then maybe you should consider the impact of your electricity demand on animals? Or the “warm and fuzzy” feeling that you seem to be trying to convey so that people feel like they are making a difference by increasing your ad revenue? Sadly farms have to kill and subsequently sell meat of over the hill dairy cows or hens. Is this the worst thing in the world - I don’t think so. I personally know the farms and people that I buy free-range / organic meat and eggs from and try to buy “game” rather than farmed meat / fish when I can (always wild fish actually).

If you look at things a bit more realistically, then you might see that there are animal rights issues with being vegan as well - for example, the destruction of rainforest (or any animal habitat) to grow products such as soy. Not to mention the fact that much of the land is blatantly stolen from indigenous people with little or no compensation.

Let’s not act like being vegan is next to godliness.

If you really want to be responsible then try eating a small amount of meat products from animals that are either raised ethically or from the wild and the rest veggie. In fact, growing animals can be a great use of land like that in the foothills of the Rocky Mountains where it is very difficult to grow anything. With a growing population and impending environmental problems we actually have to look at the _whole_ picture and be responsible on a global scale - not just substitute one problem for another.

btw congrats on the funding!!!

Bliggy,

I’m in the middle of doing my weekly podcast for Vegan.com.  I have to say I’m pretty frustrated by what you wrote and I don’t know if you’re trolling or sincere in the points you made.  I’ll treat them as if they’re sincere and go through my main objections.  Please see below.  I’ve italicized everything you’ve written.

Erik Marcus


Just like Zaadz, food producers are in it to make money. If the people at Zaadz are so concerned then maybe you should consider the impact of your electricity demand on animals? Or the “warm and fuzzy” feeling that you seem to be trying to convey so that people feel like they are making a difference by increasing your ad revenue?

Unless the computer you were at while writing this was powered by solar panels or a bicycle generator, I don’t see you’re ability to lob stones here.  Put another way, I’ll gladly burn a few gallons of gas to travel to a talk where I can (hopefully) convince a few people to go vegan.  I think it’s quite possible to be actively engaged in changing the world while leaving a small environmental footprint.

Sadly farms have to kill and subsequently sell meat of over the hill dairy cows or hens. Is this the worst thing in the world - I don’t think so

From the point of view of those cows and those hens, I think it is indeed the worst thing in the world.

I personally know the farms and people that I buy free-range / organic meat and eggs from and try to buy “game” rather than farmed meat / fish when I can (always wild fish actually).

There are substantial environmental costs to eating most “wild” fish.  Appendix D of _Meat Market_ addresses these costs.

If you look at things a bit more realistically, then you might see that there are animal rights issues with being vegan as well - for example, the destruction of rainforest (or any animal habitat) to grow products such as soy.

It sounds as though you think you have a monopoly on looking at things realistically.  I personally think the environmental arguments made for veganism are often overstated.  But I’m unaware of any serious observer who thinks that a vegan diet consumes *more* resources than an omnivorous diet.  There’s one professor in the pacific northwest who has made this point but his analysis is full of holes.

Not to mention the fact that much of the land is blatantly stolen from indigenous people with little or no compensation.

The only stolen land is that used for growing vegan foods?  Not feed crops for animals?

Let’s not act like being vegan is next to godliness.

I think you’re trolling here.  Veganism is merely a way that allows you to avoid having a couple thousand animals slaughtered for your food during your lifetime.

If you really want to be responsible then try eating a small amount of meat products from animals that are either raised ethically or from the wild and the rest veggie.

Again, trolling and a failure to offer evidence.  How is eating small amounts of animal products from alternative producers more responsible than eating a strictly vegan diet?

In fact, growing animals can be a great use of land like that in the foothills of the Rocky Mountains where it is very difficult to grow anything. With a growing population and impending environmental problems we actually have to look at the _whole_ picture and be responsible on a global scale - not just substitute one problem for another.

You can absolutely use arid land with poor soil to graze livestock, thus producing food for people on land that could not otherwise produce food.  But in so doing, the toll on wildlife is often staggering.  Appendix C of Meat Market offers a full discussion of this.

Brian is working very hard to make Zaadz a community for informed and passionate discussion.  I feel like your comments really lowered the tone of the discussion, introducing a lot of preachiness with no facts to back up your assertions.  Having said that, I would be happy to continue this dialog.  A good starting point for background reading from the meat eater’s perspective would be Peter Cheeke’s _Contemporary Trends in Animal Agriculture_ as well as Michael Pollan’s various NY Times articles.  And to get more familiar with the best arguments for vegetarianism, you might wish to read my own _Meat Market_ as well as perhaps Tom Regan’s _Empty Cages_ and Matthew Scully’s _Dominion_.

one day i’m going to write a blog about why i’m not vegan and it will be very uninspiring

Ha. Katie you crack me up!

I really enjoyed reading this post. Reminds me a lot of Dr. Peter Singer.